A thought that has come from thinking about predestination

OK, so Ephesians 1 says that we are all predestined - chosen by God to be one of his children.

Just wondering if they ever feel like they have not really been chosen? That they are trying to live a life that has not been chosen for them?

Is it normal to even think like this, or is the passage supposed to be an encouragement to us that we are so loved by God that he chose us before time began, and I am just weird.

I have also been reading a book lately on infertility and it talks about your relationship with God. It asks whether you feel mad with God. I am not mad at God for the situation that he has put us in, but I feel no desire to talk to him and almost expect that God will just tell me to suck it up and get over it. So, it is easier to sit in a corner and lick my wounds privately, than to let God in to my life, only to feel as though he kicks me in the guts once again.





Well....... That was more than what I intended to say to begin with, but I am interested in your thoughts and I want this place to be about sharing where we feel confortable.

Kel...I want you to know that I feel so priveleged that you have shared some of your heart, struggle and pain. That you made yourself this vulnerable.

I read what you say and I don't know how to respond.

I sense that your struggle is not with pre-destination but that it was a vehicle to share your pain, doubts struggles?

I want to affirm you. Kelly, you are not weird. You are wonderful.

Secondly...God will not tell you to suck it up. Your heart matters. Despite what you may think or not think...your heart matters to God. It is all precious.

This was in an email that I got today. It seemed appropriate to this thread:

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A Subtle Erosion
01/10/2008

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There are few things more crucial to us than our own lives.

And there are few things we are less clear about.

This journey we are taking is hardly down the yellow brick road. Then again, that’s not a bad analogy at all. We may set out in the light, with hope and joy, but eventually, our path always seems to lead us through dark woods, shrouded with a low-lying mist. Where is this abundant life that Christ supposedly promised? Where is God when we need him most? What is to become of us?

The cumulative effect of days upon years that we do not really understand is a subtle erosion. We come to doubt our place, we come to question God’s intentions toward us, and we lose track of the most important things in life.

We’re not fully convinced that God’s offer to us is life. We have forgotten that the heart is central. And we had no idea that we were born into a world at war.

(Waking the Dead, 1-2)

Kel. I don't want to say too much more for fear of being incredibly insensitive. But the questions (underlined) that arise in this email are profound. It may be worth looking into you heart to see how it answers them?

Praying for you Kel.

Where is this abundant life that Christ supposedly promised? Where is God when we need him most? What is to become of us?

I don't think that God promises an abundant life. Overall I am happy with my life. As much as I want God to answer our prayer of a baby, I am ok with how my life is at the moment. I wouldn't say content, but ok. The thing is that God has listened to us cry to him for the last 5 years, and still chooses not to answer our prayer. Maybe he does and he says no. How do you face 5 years of having God say no (which just feels like God doesn't listen in the first place) and not feel rejected? It feels like he has abandoned us when we need him the most.

we come to question God’s intentions toward us
Well, this one I always struggle with because I don't know what God's plan for us is. Maybe this comes out of being a control freak and wanting to be in charge of everything. But I always wonder what God intends for us if children are not in his plan? Why does he give us a desire and longing for such things if he has no intention of fulfilling that desire???

We’re not fully convinced that God’s offer to us is life

Are we ever fully convinced of this? Am I the only one who ever wonders whether they are truly part of God's family? Am I the only one who sits and reads the parable of the sower and wonders if I am the seed that is choked by the weeds, or even the one that falls on the path?

Kelly wrote:
I don't think that God promises an abundant life.

Hey Kel. Wow, there is so much contained in your words above. Instead of shoving ideas down your throat, I thought I might just present some scripture that may (or may not be) helpful and probe your thoughts a little bit...

John 10:10 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Jesus tells us that he has come to deliver life and life to the full. At the same time he tells us that in this world, we will have trouble. What is your concept of an abundant life? Why do you think that God doesn't promise this?

You sound like you might be struggling a little bit with confidence before God and confidence in salvation. If this is what you feel a bit of, I know this struggle all too well...and it has been the struggle of my life. Confidence before God. Having none. These scriptures from 1 John 3 have been helpful to me:

19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

And from Hebrews 10:

17Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

And finally Jesus wants to give us peace. I know that you didn't mention this too much...but I think it is so awesome that the peace that Jesus had in the midst of angry mobs, a violent storm and walking the road to Calvary...this shalom peace he makes available to us. Its not a no-frills peace, a hollywood peace, a calm under fire sorta peace. It his Christs peace. It is shalom peace. And he gives it freely. I think thats awesome.

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."

Praying for you Kel and Chris. Bless youse.

a·bun·dant /əˈbʌndənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-buhn-duhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. present in great quantity; more than adequate; oversufficient: an abundant supply of water.
2. well supplied; abounding: a river abundant in salmon.
3. richly supplied: an abundant land.

This I do not feel. Do you feel that you have an abuntant life? Does doing Corpoate Cedit Cards make your life feel abundant?

The rest I will come back to when I have thought about it a little more.

We have just returned from bible study, and this was the passage:

Ephesians 1: 15- 2:10

15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


This is an awesome passage, and I know this should feel encouraged and uplifted, but I don't. I don't know why, but I don't.

Kelly wrote:
This I do not feel. Do you feel that you have an abuntant life? Does doing Corpoate Cedit Cards make your life feel abundant?

Kel! Cheeky!

No. Processing Corporate Credit Cards does not make my life feel abundant. But then again, I never claimed that I was experiencing abundant life.

I feel that I am being drawn towards it, and as soon as I get out of my own way and let God lead the way, He'll lead me to that promised land, that land of abundance. I think much of it has to do with the fact that I am not doing what my heart desires. I see glimpses of it now and then but for the most part I am either too chicken or too distracted to enter into my calling, what God has prepared for me. But what is the promised land without a journey? I am on that journey now and God is working in me...telling me that there is a destination and a reason for the things going on in my heart, a reason for the angst, confusion and hurts that I experience. Its supposed to happen on this journey that is leading me there. Sometimes I stutter. Sometimes I fall. Sometimes I go back up the path instead of heading towards that abundant life. But my lifes experience (albeit as short as it is) shows me that God gently points me back in the right direction and grants me the grace for the hurdles along the way time and time again.

Christ promises an abundant life. He also tells us to expect troubles in this life. So clearly, an abundant life includes troubles which sounds contradictory but perhaps bears meditating on. I know that I haven't really put that two and two together before and so I'm mulling over what this could mean. Then again, I could be completely wrong too!

Kelly wrote:
This is an awesome passage, and I know this should feel encouraged and uplifted, but I don't. I don't know why, but I don't.

Kel, you've seen me at some pretty low points in my walk with God. Chatting after work you saw it occasionally. Theres been one or two homegroup meetings that you've seen it. Really low points where I'm just so depressed about me and where I'm at with God and what a good christian should be doing and why I can't and why I don't have the heart for God that I should.

These are hard times. I look back and can't even remember how I came out of those. But I know Gods grace is all over it. God will neither abandon you nor forsake you. Don't beat yourself up about how you're feeling...God is so much bigger than all that. He will work in your heart without you knowing it. He will draw you to himself without you knowing it. He will reveal things to you that you don't expect. This isn't to say that you don't have a role in this, but I have every confidence that you won't linger here forever. The plan to draw you out is already being worked on by God. Its just the timeline that we don't know about. Its hard...and I hesitate to say these things because it can be so frustrating to hear but really, just hang in there. You are loved. Your heart matters deeply. He is fighting for it.

I haven't read all of the subsequent post's in full (part of my ADD tendencies I suppose).

But these are some of the feelings i have in this regard.

1. I questioned for a long time about "How do I know if I am really there or just pretending and will realise it later?". Knowing what that would mean I wanted to waste my time partying here and being sinful rather than trying to behave and be chosen when it wasn't my true nature and I would just end up in hell anyway.
One of the things that has always sustained me since a person pointed it out once was the passage regarding "If you declare Christ as Lord"

2. I have struggled with the passages that talk about children being a blessing and that, inherently within the Christian wedding liturgy, is a promise of Children and that, as pounded out sometimes at MKC, God's instruction is to multiply and fill the earth. ... I don't know how to finish that point, I think I'm just putting it ou there.

3. Whilst I know that I have nothing to endear me towards God than any other person ... It cut's deeply to see non-christian's falling pregnant all the time, sometimes in unplanned circumstances, and despising the child ... When God's faithful servants/children go unrewarded in what is inherently something that is TRULY related purely to God's will.

4. I think that God understand's that we misunderstand God. That is to say ... God knows that inherently within our human nature ... we will be short sighted ceatures. That the here and now will be far more easily understood to us than the future and what "all the riches in heavenly realms" actually mean. Therefore, when we do get mad with God and believe that we aren't living life to the full, I will understand the fact that we don't understand.

5. I had thought for a long time (probably still do), that we could never be mad or upset with God, that we had no right to be and that we were being UTTERLY sinful if we ever were. That God always knew and understood exactly what he was doing and where things were going. ... I don't know where this thought goes again ... I think it was just expressing it.

I don't know if any of this helps ... except to say ... your not weird ... or otherwise that we are both weird

Kel,

They are some pretty full on posts huh! I dont know biblically what to quote, nor do I understand the way God works.. What I do know is that God is in control (even though we dont always get it) and whatever he has planned for you, will be beautiful.

I know that I, myself, will be having the same struggles you are having, and I will quite possibly have these struggles forever, I fear they will never end. I don't know how far in the near future I will be experiencing this (given that my prince is in fact Mr Right.- more about him later) What I do know for certain, is that you have an awesome network of friends, who are always here for you & we do love you, and we do care about you - I know I am always here for you - for a talk, for a cry, to listen, to smack me out - if you wish.

You are beautiful Kel, and I love you a billion years. Our friendship is like the sun, you may not always see it - but you know that its always there, Shining brightly.

I dont know that this post will offer you anything at all. I love you tho kel.

xoxoxoxo